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(re: re: re: re: re: RE: You fell off KENNY BOY!! YOU FELL OFF!!!)
Signor Giovanni is right about Infocom.
I do believe that the adventure isn’t dead at all, but is merely evolving into something we don’t know.
It’s the same evolution made by a new generation of hardware every 2.5 years.
As I have stated in previous posts, I believe in adventures played like console adventures (Banjo-Kazooie format), then the type of games we liked could be made easily, and extremely similar to play mechanics as the older adventure games we all love.
This’s where, I believe, King’s Quest 8 was headed in the right direction. Though I personally don’t like KQ8, it’s pretty good, nonetheless.
The other way adventure could go in back to the VGA days in play mechanics. I mean, why not? It wouldn’t cost the company any money compared to today’s standards, and I really believe that the games would be snatched up, for 2 reasons: 1) The game should be priced between $10 and $20 on a standard CD-ROM and 2) It would be so simple of a program (like Tierra’s remakes) that the games could run on a 486 or Pentium, making it usable for a group of consumers that were buying Sierra games a decade or so ago. With a few drivers and such, these games can run on multiple OSs such as Linux and Mac as well as Win 3.x or whatever. Hell, it could be designed so far to even run on a console or DVD player, but it would be very crude from my own visions.
I feel that this market out there, like the techno market in music (sells in every nation the genre is released, but not even promoted in the US making the record companies blame us for piracy when it’s actually bad music=bad sales), there is an audience for good, cheap games that are simple to run/install and play, and aren’t graphically confusing.
(re: re: re: So what did you like more?)
Ultima 7 (all 5 games and Underworld series) brought the house down at CompUSA when I was a teen. I have the original Ultima 7, and it came with lots of goodies, and, since I had a 486 (besides the Tandy) it had Windows compatibility, which allowed me to sneak games in while working on Word for homework.
I remember the Ultima 9 box was huge. I didn’t get one, because EB Games recalled them back to EA for some reason, and refunded my money. Strange.
The one company today that believes what we believe in gaming is Working Designs. They packed Lunar with a cloth map, and a nice little book. Arc the Lad came with analog covers and other nice stuff (misplaced most of it).
I remember buying SQ1 VGA for my Tandy, and for some reason it was a rare 360 KB floppy version, which was spread over what seemed like 10,000 floppies! (More like 10, but when I was a kid . . . )
Today I cruise thrift stores and buy the “big, huge” older games. Okay, so most don’t run well under XP, but who cares! It’s all the groovy stuff that’s inside. And that’s so strange is all of these old PC games have everything is good condition. I wonder where Savers and Goodwill are getting these.
I’ve found, in perfect order: Laura Bow 2, King’s Quest 4, 5, 6 (all in different boxes no the ones with gold letters), Leisure Suit Larry 2, Space Quest 3, Command & Conquer (and it had a strange Windows NT/Mac OS sticker on it, and works on both perfectly), The 7th Guest, Half-Life Plantinum (still in its plastic wrap), and Dragon’s Lair 1, 2, 3, 4, CD-ROM and DVD-ROM (which doesn’t work in a DVD-ROM). I know I’ve found more, like many PC versions of NES Konami games and Capcom games, but they’re too many too much.
(re: re: re: re: RE: You fell off KENNY BOY!! YOU FELL OFF!!!)
Glad to see my observation sparked a lot of comments from your side. It is indeed a point on which I thought a lot too. Here is my thinking.
Before all, your words on “deeper”, on “money spent on the game” are not only right, but a truth I do fully subscribe. As I wrote previously, also your first AGI games has more depth and every time you switched to a new technology, the first of your games suffered (I assume from the more time spent on tech vs depth in fact).
I would still buy with pleasure a good old text game and indeed I recently finished my collection of all Infocom games, thanks to eBay and Yois.However, on Infocom, I do have a slightly different opinion. Please do take it as an openly expressed opinion, from a fan and not a technical person as I am.
First of all, I believe we can all agree when you say that Infocom failed due to the shift to Business products.
Actually I even tend to say more than that, that they in the end did fail because they lacked complete convincement in what they were doing best (adventures). Where Sierra was focused, Infocom, even while happy for the good results of adventures, thought at adventure games as a source of cash for their real products to come: business products (maybe seing companies started by co-students prosper…).
In this way, they did fail in one of the basic in business: they tried to finance the new Cornerstone project by taking resources out of their then core and cash producing business rather than finance it and see it as something separate, a second division maybe.This said though, Ken, I must say that I am fully convinced that in the end, Infocom would have failed nonetheles, and here is why.
The evolution on computers to my eyes was towards the end of 80s making the situation more and more similar to Movies vs Books (I admit it, both much better, since interactive, but really a sort of).
Practically, more and more people were attracted by the increasing potentiality of technology, rendering the text side more and more a niche. On the other side, more and more the aficionados were getting stronger in defending their belief, but still more and more niche.In reality, the truth is that Movies and Books are not mutually excluding, a good Movie is good as well as a good Book, but if a Book is good it is much better than the Movie because, as you correctly said, it has more depth, and this is even more true if you consider computers, due to interaction capabilities.
So, why text adv aficionados were becoming more and more niche ? Less time to spend in front of a computer and easy catching graphics, plus the effect of new things and potentialities to see did the most I think. Computers were becoming more like movie theaters and people don’t go to movie theaters to see text of mute movies. That medium became suitable for something different…
… so what could have saved text adventures and Infocom (besides the core fans, like you and me of course) ?
Using the same paragon of Movies and Books, my guess is as portability played strongly in favour of books (you can read on a beach, on a sofa,… if a book is good it can spellbing you anywhere, in bed,…), only that same atout could have given to Infocom the new life it would have needed to survive: unfortunately it was not ready yet. Nowadays (more 2/3 years ago indeed) Palms and Handheld (even more than portable PCs) represent what in my opinion would be the right medium again for text adventures: I myself started again to play for example on the plane when travelling to Asia for work, or in bed,… a more suitable medium !
Unfortunately for Infocom, between the end 80s and the advent and real spreading of handhelds there were years in between, and for this I say that they could not have survived in their decision to stick to text.
Maybe they could have survived the interreign by moving more towards similar mix as Magnetic Scrolls (Infocom text and not many reinforcing high level still life pics), but it’s really hard to say.I repeat, this is my own and maybe elaborate opinion, and it may as well be completely wrong, but I feel it and I wanted to share it with you.
I close with a thank you for still caring so much about adventure games since passion transpires from your words.
The someone might in the end be you, never thoguht about it ?
Ciao,
Giovanni(RE: 40033 Sierra Way)
Ross:
What do you do for VUGames? How long have you been there? How did you get
these pictures?-Ken W
—
(40033 Sierra Way)
This may be interesting to any Oakhurst employee from the early 90s ….
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Sierra Oakhurst Motley Crew.jpg
sierraway.jpg(re: re: So what did you like more?)
Danny, I agree with you there. If there’s not much in the box, might as well shrink it down in order to fit more product on the shelves. Isn’t that what progress and technology is all about? Shrink it down, put more out, make more money… haha.
In all honesty though, I’d prefer it if games still came out in big boxes with tons of bonus in-box contents. Remember the Ultima VII games anyone? You got a nice cloth map, an install guide, registration card, game-specific manual, and in the “The Black Gate” box, you got a nice Fellowship Medallion. Heck, with Ultima Underworld I, you got a little cloth bag with runes in it! I miss stuff like this.
(re: So what did you like more?)
I have to say that with present-day games which include just a jewel case and maybe a registration card I prefer the smaller boxes. For instance, you can get Half-Life in a big box with jewel case/product card or you can get the same stuff in a scaled down version of the same box. Much better use of space and a much lower waste of cardboard. Most games that come out today are in these smaller boxes. In the store that I work at, it means we can get more product out in the same shelf space.
(re: re: So what did you like more?)
I’m with you Charles! The infocom games always came with a TON of little extras, it was always a pleasure just to open and go through the box, just like the Sierra games.
Man I miss the good ol days…..
(Suggested Web Site) I have recently taken back a club I started on Yahoo! 5 years ago and would be honered if you would add it to you page. I will be adding to it over the next few weeks while I’m off.
Sierra Classic Games on Yahoo!
Thanks!
Raveing98
–0-897742272-1079106796=:99076–(re: So what did you like more?)
It’s sad how small PC game boxes are these days. And the contents are usually just a CD, a manual, and a registration card.
This is why I love old Sierra games. You always got something more. Take for example, the Space Quest games. The space tabloid papers, and the Space Piston magazine are not only useful to get you through the game, but really enhance the whole gaming experience. You get to hold something in your hands while you’re futzing around as Roger Wilco, and you can also have something to read while you’re not at your computer.
Recently, I’ve decided to build up a collection of old PC games. Whenever I look at the old games on ebay, or anywhere else for that matter, I try and find the games that come with the box, manuals, and all other trinkets. It’s tough, but it makes collecting a lot more fun for me.
(re: So what did you like more?)
i like my PC game boxes the size of houses, with lots of unique, game-related material. Though I don’t mind the CD itself in a nice CD or DVD case, like Diablo II or Lunar Silver Star came in, I just don’t dig a DVD/CD case and only the game disc. Especially if I just paid $50!
(re: re: re: re: Original King’s Quest (mainly to Orat, vintage-sierra.com))
my floppy version is 1.0, and i never even encountered than question, though i know what you’re talking about.
(re: Ken, here’s a memory test for you) Ken-
What’s on the table in front of you and roberta in the day after wedding picture? My best guess is an ashtray. My partner in crime here says it’s a fruit bowl. Just curious.
-Cory Bear
I’ll show this to Roberta when she wakes up and see if she has a better answer – but, I think I remember that it is a serving dish of some sort. It had different pockets for different nuts, or raw veggies or whatever. Neither Roberta or I smokes, so it couldn’t be an ashtray.
Here’s a silly bit of history: For a very brief period during my highschool years, I would carry cigarettes, and even roll a pack up in my shirt sleeves (when the teachers weren’t around). At the time, smoking was considered “cool,” and a great way to meet girls was to offer them a cigarette. The shirt-sleeve bit was so that it was easier for the girls to notice you had cigarettes and ask for them. I actually never smoked any of the cigarettes, other than trying one once – which about killed me with coughing. I don’t remember Roberta ever asking for one, so apparently their functionality as a female-attraction device is also not clear.
My childhood was a short one. I met Roberta when I was 16, and from that day to this we’ve been virtually inseparable.
-Ken W(re: Ken, here’s a memory test for you)
To me it looks like some kind of “lid” maybe with clamps on the side to clamp it down? On top of the “lid” it looks like the bride and groom piece of the wedding cake. 🙂
(re: re: QFG1/Hero’s Quest Info)
I still have my original Hero’s Quest with all the stuff that came with it. Unfortunately I lost the box it came in long ago but everything else I still have. 🙂
(re: Future of Adventures ?)
I can also recommend an adventure published a few years back by Funcom, calle “The Longest Journey”. The puzzles are a tad easy, but a lot of fun, with a great storyline, excellent graphics and decent voice acting.
They’re even working on a sequel.
(re: re: re: Original King’s Quest (mainly to Orat, vintage-sierra.com)) Quest for Glory 4 does have a copy protection. If you want Dr. Cranium’s to make you some potions you need to enter a code which you can find in the game manual. Don’t you remember? Pizza, Water, Whirlwind….?
(re: A rant about a review of The Hobbit)
The Hobbit and Sierra’s Lord of the Rings games are excellent games in an arena filled with shitty clones of Tomb Raider and Doom.
I’ve confronted both Editor-in-Chiefs of EGM and PSM. They tell their staff to over use the suffix “-ass” in a description and they wouldn’t know a good game if they designed one and sold a billion copies. They magazines write for an audience of nobody, as the kids I know who play video games all go on-line to get info from various websites. Since both magazines are owned by Liberals, you can draw your own conclusions as to why they even write what they write.
What the article-in-rant should acknowledge is that King’s Quest is more respected than The Hobbit, but that King’s Quest has sold (or via piracy) more copies out there than most modern games have sold.
Lastly, I hate magazines that tell how to “think”. I want an honest opinion, and I find word-of-mouth and chat rooms the best and honest review of any game.
Shame on these magazines for anything they do.
(re: QFG1/Hero’s Quest Info)
Yeah, I had Hero’s Quest, not Quest for Glory. I remember it, because when Quest for Glory came out, I bought a copy, thinking it was a different game. Afterwards, I gave the Hero’s Quest copy to a friend, because I thought Quest for Glory sounded cooler. I wish I hadn’t.
(re: QFG1/Hero’s Quest Info)
I see a few copies of “Hero’s Quest” floating around on ebay here and there. I don’t believe the original release was ever re-called, but Ken would know better than I would.
(re: re: re: re: RE: You fell off KENNY BOY!! YOU FELL OFF!!!)
A few recent adventures (as in since around 2000 or so):
The X Files (PS1)
Final Fantasy series (PS1/2 & GCube)
Escape from Monkey Island (PS2)
Law & Order (PC)
CSI (PC)
Dracula the Resurrection (PS1)
Incredible Crisis (PS1)
Pokemon series (N64, GB, & GCube)
Banjo-Kazooie series (N64, GBA)I’m just pointing out that adventure has died at all. It has evolved. Ken, you’re absolutely right about focus. I notice, from my own ownership, that games like X Files or Banjo are really fun. I learned to accept that the adventures look and play different. I wouldn’t object to another King’s Quest that plays like 8, as long as there’s joystick support this time. I feel that LucasArts did good with Monkey Island 4, making it very Mario 64-ish, yet being Monkey Island. I’ve no idea what VU will do to Larry 9 (or whatever number Al’s going by) will be similar.
Sierra sure had a unique style. But a “credible universe” is something more, so much more, important to a game than anything else. Note Diablo, EverQuest and Final Fantasy 11. I don’t think that King’s Quest Online is a bad idea, but more depths than a bunch Grahams running around is needed.
However, as I stated before, something’s around the corner here in gaming. We’ll know it when we see it 😀(re: re: re: RE: You fell off KENNY BOY!! YOU FELL OFF!!!) It’s an interesting question – “What would have happened to Infocom had they stuck with text adventures?”
Conventional wisdom is that they would have failed, which in fact did occur. However, they did not fail because of their adventure games, they failed because they refocused the company on business software, and invested a ton of money, only to watch their business product fail, and take down the whole company.
I cannot honestly say what would have happened had they stuck with text adventures. I’ve thought a lot recently that a text adventure could be an interesting direction.
Here’s what intrigues me:
Adventure games, when I left Sierra, were costing us $1-5 million to produce. This is a ton of money. Much of this product was flowing into art and music. If you count the code required to support all the animation, and 3D tools, it could be easily be two thirds or more of the budget that was spent against the fancy graphics.
I never saw any of Infocom’s budgets, but my guess was that they spent well under $1 million per game.
Think about what would happen if someone had continued to evolve the artform, and gave a project the kind of budget required for a graphic adventure. In my vision, the game wouldn’t be longer, it would be DEEPER. Characters would be more fully developed. There would be more subplots. The feeling that you are a part of the story would be greater.
I’ve sat through hundreds of meetings where games were compromised because “it would require too much animation.”
I think it would be an interesting experiment to build a game that really focused on having intelligent characters. It’s a little off-subject, but I remember when our flight simulators were being considered to train fighter pilots. Game programmers are the hottest engineers out there. If 20 of Sierra’s best engineers had focused on building a synthetic world that felt real, with characters that displayed real emotion and realistic unpredictability, but the game was described in text (or, perhaps dynamically constructed images) it would have been a game worth playing.
Part of why the industry has become stale is the high focus on production values (in my humble opinion). By this I do not mean to say that art and music aren’t important. My point is that they aren’t EVERYTHING. Unfortunately though, because depth of play isn’t usually visible, and art/music is, depth sometimes loses.
I’ve always said that computers are a new art form, simiilar but different than film and books. I remember when people thought film would kill the book industry. It didn’t. Books are books and films are films. Books aren’t bad. Book publishers shouldn’t stop making books, and become film companies. Generally, films don’t have the same depth of plot that a book does. The “graphics” get in the way. Plus, the fact that you only have 90 minutes to tell a story in most films. Computers are good at interactivity. It’s what they do that can’t be found in books or film. Some games forget that computers are a super-set of films and books. You have the ablity of a book to add depth to a story, the ability of a film to dazzle with graphics and sound, and the interactivity of a computer – to make the viewer a participant, not a spectator in the story.
I’m describing this poorly… but, hopefully you can see where I’m going with this.
The focus in a game has to be on building a great game. This comes through building a credible universe, and allowing people to role-play in it. I’m fairly convinced that a quantum leap forward could be made in the adventure game genre if the same kind of money (or more) were spent on “the game” as is spent on the art/sound track. Hopefully someday someone will experiment with a text adventure that blows me away. I like it when pre-conceived notions are shattered…
-Ken W(re: re: RE: You fell off KENNY BOY!! YOU FELL OFF!!!)
I agree completely with Kyle.
I also just want to add that the move to more important graphics was, to my eyes, at the same time unfortunate (I’m still fond of old good AGI as Tony) and a must.
Look at what happened to Infocom, who remained faithful to a system that became a niche: it failed in less than 10 years. Both Companies left us many great games, but Sierra by going towards graphic had at least the chance to try and survive giving us also now good adventures, but, very unfortunately, the new owners of Sierra ruined it all by turning around on adv. (silly thing indeed). This is not fault of Ken for sure and he deserves for sure our full trust and thanks. Try to do what he and Roberta did !!!
Giovanni(re: re: Original King’s Quest (mainly to Orat, vintage-sierra.com))
beats me. i have poor memory. the floppy version of PQ4 doesn’t have any copy protection at all, nor did QFG4, LSL6, or SQ5. If they did, I never encounted any.
I did have a demo from Sigma Designs of PQ4, and it had a different opening where the LAPD badge gets blown away by a shotgun blast.
as for GK1 . . . I really can’t remember. The only thing left after my sis in law stole a bunch of games is the comic for GK3.
